The Gallery is Cleaning Up...Can We Clean the Communal Writers Section?

[Dr_J]

I am really liking how things are starting to turn out on this forum. In fact, this is probably one of the most improved forums I've seen to date, hence why I continue to participate and upload my work here.

I've noticed the Gallery is being cleaned up, which I'm quite pleased to hear since the points made about this operation make sense.

There is one other suggestion I'd like to address, and that is the Communal Writers section under the "Fiction" area of the site.

I've been writing for seven years and will continue to do so until the day I die. I've seen some excellent stories on here and other forums, and some really, really, really bad stories. Some of these "stories" consist of one paragraph with no character development, a forgettable/cliche plot, and formatting/grammar/spelling errors like you wouldn't believe.

Now, since I'm all for constructive criticism, I tend to leave comments that suggest what could be done to improve some of these literary atrocities. These comments tend to be pushed aside or ignored altogether, which is a shame. Why wouldn't someone want to improve their writing?

Some of these stories are of questionable taste and seem as though they were written to fulfill someone's sexual fantasy. That would be okay, but all other elements that make up a good story seem to be forgotten.

I'm hoping something can be done about this. Out of honor I will not name names or point out specific stories that are no good, but I'd like to see if there's a way we can clean up that section, too. That is, of course, when there is time, as I understand it takes a lot of work to do these types of things.

That's just my suggestion. I'd love to hear some feedback. Thanks for your time.

Dr_J

[Winnie Cooper]

Some were removed just recently (or they were supposed to be, anyway - I'll look to see if they were or not).

The problem in that comes is that it is so subjective. While I can make a clear rule for a picture, and I can see easily if a picture breaks any of those rules (IE no genitalia, must be AB related...), it is much harder to do so with stories.

I can remove stories that have absolutely no attention to spelling or grammar, sure. One paragraph pieces of shiite (I spelled it that way on purpose, people) can be removed without any uproar. But, when it starts coming down to judging whether something is written just to fulfill a sexual fantasy, etc., it gets a lot more subjective and a lot harder.

And besides all that, you also have fandoms to deal with. One person who is adored by fans can write something and people will love it, but let the same person submit it under an unknown name, and it will be slaughtered. I know - I've experimented with this. lol

[Samiel]

Thank you very much for bringing this to our attention! This is the sort of input this site needs.

---------- Post added at 10:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 AM ----------

Okay, I've been discussing this with another mod--and here's the conclusion we're coming to. While we do agree that the stories need to actually be legible, the content is much more open for debate. If there are any stories you find disagreeable, just report them to one of us. We will discuss whether or not the story needs to be removed. Mind you, that stories fall under free speech more clearly than pictures do, so they need to be more carefully considered.

[Dr_J]

Definitely understandable. I will say that the "Kit and Kat" series is actually what motivated me to post this suggestion. I tried and tried to give the writer some helpful feedback but was ignored.

I'm glad I could give some useful input :)

[Samiel]

Could you give me a link?

[Dr_J]

http://diaperedanime.com/forum/vbarticles.php?do=article&articleid=546&title=

You can even read the author's comment. This is only one of these types of stories he/she has written. There are more in the Communal section somewhere, but they've been posted at different times.

I've seen this person banned on another forum due to some arrogant posts regarding his/her work, so I'm not surprised if I see these stories removed.

[Samiel]

Okay, I've read it but withhold my opinion here. I'll put this up for discussion in the mods forum. Thank you very much again!

[nekoman]

its not that bad listin its coming up for diaper stories of anime which is what this site is about i also see some things banned that arent too bad i mean some off topic things are okay just post in the off topic a thon or create a new thread somewhere else

[Dr_J]

its not that bad listin its coming up for diaper stories of anime which is what this site is about i also see some things banned that arent too bad i mean some off topic things are okay just post in the off topic a thon or create a new thread somewhere else

This site may be about that, but there still needs to be integral parts of a story, whether it's anime-related diaper stories or original stories.

You say it isn't that bad, but I've been writing for years and have seen these types of lacking stories on other forums. They aren't smiled upon there, so I don't think this should be an exception.

If a story is written, it needs to be readable. That goes for grammar, story, and character development. If we let these stories slide, that would ultimately bring the writing aspect of this site down...something I don't want to see happen.

Things like using text speech to tell stories, the wrong uses of "there, their, and they're", and the like can completely ruin the reading experience for some folks.

[jojob60]

I'll shout it once and I'll post it agine.
On the pic controversy I'm neutral, but keep this in mind these pics are rare and can't be easily found at a rapid speed like plain hentai and restricting a flow may lead to a drought.

I'm not complianing & honestly it really is hard to find a fully deloped fe/male pic diapered.

P.s. victorianichole pretty please with dagreatpanda on top write another chapter in the sakura series please, please, please!!!!!!!!

[Dr_J]

I'll shout it once and I'll post it agine.
On the pic controversy I'm neutral, but keep this in mind these pics are rare and can't be easily found at a rapid speed like plain hentai and restricting a flow may lead to a drought.

I'm not complianing & honestly it really is hard to find a fully deloped fe/male pic diapered.

P.s. victorianichole pretty please with dagreatpanda on top write another chapter in the sakura series please, please, please!!!!!!!!

But what are your thoughts on the Communal Writers section? That's what I made this thread for, not for the Gallery because it's already been discussed.

[TBinthehoodie]

my thoughts on this idea is good but the one t5hing that concerns me is that there are some stories (including a couple of mine) has delayed regression's in it. i'm a bit worried on those stories getting deleted.

mainly because a few of my best stories have delayed regressions and also some stories from others i luv are like that.

[nekoman]

actually the communal writers section is very clean we just are doing part stories

[Dr_J]

I agree that most of the stories are clean, but there still needs to be some basic formatting/spelling/grammar guidelines, and of course some story guidelines. A lot of stories on here don't have mature warnings on them, which should be put in since some like myself don't like to read excessively detailed stories, if you know what I mean.

I understand spelling is hard for some members as I've been informed some are dyslexic and whatnot, but some members would probably be glad to help with editing and feedback before a story is posted, which would be great.

[TBinthehoodie]

well i'm in the boat of people that can't spell that great.

[Samiel]

That's okay, Creed. :) All you have to do is ask someone to have a look at it before you post it.

[TBinthehoodie]

ok since i'm working on writer status.... it'll b a great help.

[Sayokane]

Being a writer myself; I often find it saddening that some of the stories I've found here at either one liners, or written using text type speech. So far I haven't read any of them (but then again, it's been a week since I last checked)

I mean, grammar is one of the main problems that I've seen on this site when it comes to story writing. People just don't seem to care about their writing, they don't realize that you can't just write a story using short-hand typing or all lower-case or no paragraphing, it's just bad practice.

Yea this may be a site; but there is absolutely NO EXCUSE to be using such poor spelling/grammar when writing. Most documents have spell-checker, I use my own, but even I miss spelling errors in my stories. However, some of the stories I've read here make me wonder if the writer even 'cared' to check.

There's an old saying: if you continue to do something long enough, it becomes second nature. What this mean's is that if you continue to misspell or write in a certain fashion for so long of a time, you'll begin doing it without realizing it.

Now, that being said, my concern also with this clean up are those of us who are suffering from writers block. I would hate for my story (which is in several parts) to disappear suddenly =|

[TBsparky]

I understand spelling is hard for some members as I've been informed some are dyslexic and whatnot, but some members would probably be glad to help with editing and feedback before a story is posted, which would be great.Yes! that's what most members need to do! =3 get others to read it and check for these issues and help if the story needs more ideas, work and formatting or whatnot =3


Yea this may be a site; but there is absolutely NO EXCUSE to be using such poor spelling/grammar when writing. Most documents have spell-checker, I use my own, but even I miss spelling errors in my stories. However, some of the stories I've read here make me wonder if the writer even 'cared' to check. I understand what you mean but some members DO have an excuse, ok some are lazy and will type anything to make a story just to get good ratings, somehow, from members. While others really do try and fix their problems. Ok, not all grammers and spelling issues are picked up i mean I myself have a little problem with where, were and we're now and then.
Some do actually take pride in their story =3 but constructive critisms is great to help! like DR.J stated about a members and my own story =3 it helps the writer understand what has happened and what can be done! if the person writing it actually listens..

[nekoman]

pictures wernt to bad and i liked jadecahn comics

[Dr_J]

pictures wernt to bad and i liked jadecahn comics

Could we please stay on topic? This thread was made for the sole purpose of discussing the writing associated with this forum. Thanks ;)

[Samiel]

GBID--I'd like to point you to this thread.
http://diaperedanime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1069
This thread was written before you joined us, but the message remains. Please stay on topic in a thread, we've been having problems with it long enough.

That being said--yes, TBSparky makes some pretty good points in his post. One of the reasons many people think the gallery needs to be cleaned up is that not enough people put forth the effort required to make the story truly great. They may have the creativity, but perhaps they don't have the ability to put their ideas down. This can be easily solved by just asking someone else to help them write it, or at least edit it.

[Dr_J]

Much agreed, Samiel (and might I add, well put...both with your response to TBSparky and GBID).

It works on other forums, so I don't see why it won't work on this one. I think the hardest part will be to help people understand that it's constructive criticism, and that it can be harsh but is always meant to be helpful.

I won't ever comment with, "this sucks." and that's it. I will explain what needs to be fixed to improve a story's readability and enjoyment. If we put in a bit of an effort, this can work :)

[Samiel]

Certainly. RP is where I put forth most of my creative efforts, but since that is in itself really just interactive story writing/telling, the same conventions apply. Talking to your partner between RPs about the previous sessions can often be very helpful.
One can still apply the same flaws and cliches to both RP and standard fiction writing: cliches, hackneyed plots, incoherence, and such. The only real difference is that instead of writing the story alone, you're writing it with another, or others.

[Dr_J]

That's actually why I've been hesitant to start an RP thread. I've seen some really well-written RPs on here, and some really not so good ones (although if the participants are enjoying it, all's well).

I simply prefer it to be that if I'm putting an effort in to writing a story (or RP), then I would like the same effort put in it as well.

[Samiel]

Indeed. But everyone has different definitions of effort and quality, and that's one of the reasons why the comments and rating systems were put into place in the fiction section.

[Winnie Cooper]

A plan is being formulated now to deal with this. I feel a need to speak up on something that was said though. To give someone an excuse for laziness by saying, "Oh, we have to understand some spelling problems because ______ has dyslexia," is absolutely absurd. First of all, plenty of writers have dyslexia, and they work hard and overcome it. To just throw up your hands and say because you have dyslexia, you can't, is a cowardly cop-out and an excuse to be lazy. Second, there is no reason whatsoever this day and age to have spelling in a story like some I have been looking at in that section. Get a fricking spell-check! It's not that hard, people. It will tell you that, "i lik 2 wer dipers" is incorrect.

Conclusion, I am judging equally across the board. If you have a few little errors here and there, that's fine, but if it's not even legible....

[Dr_J]

It wasn't meant as an excuse for laziness. It was an observation. I whole-heartedly agree that only a few errors are acceptable if they're legible.

If someone does in fact have dyslexia, then that's what the other users offering to edit a story for them would be for.

[neo]

If someone does in fact have dyslexia, then that's what the other users offering to edit a story for them would be for.

and who would be responsible for editing every story submission made? I can tell you asking for editing help on other forums is usually something you have to pay for unless forum administration dedicates themselves to allocating resources to edit what can account (on this forum) to 10-20 submissions a week.

Even then forced editing gets into subjective content conflicts (which is never good when it comes to personal expression) language barriers (non English and or cross dialects like Canadian VS american VS queens English and other colloquialisms) and grammar issues.

If that where to happen you would most likely lose 90% of the stories submitted here because looking that deeply into things that just are not ever going to meet that standards kills desire to even try.

Though thats to say I don't feel a single incoherent, jumbled up paragraph that is one long "run on sentence" isn't an acceptable story submission nor would it be if its something that would be if it doesnt look or read like one. A story should look like a story if it is going to be submitted as such and it should be readable.

Just don't go demanding professional or post secondary level writing standards or forced formatting requirements like minimum word counts and double spaced submissions among other things like I mentioned above.

I'm here to read as a form of lifestyle enjoyment not to be lectured from a bunch of overly arrogant and conservative English teachers who think their god. There are plenty of other places to get banned, get burned in a weekly crusade or have your work deleted if you have a few spelling errors or don't meet unreasonable standards.

Roleplay is the same way. All demanding impossibly high detail or minimum posting lengths do in this fandom is kill creativity. No one wants to sit for 2-3 hours writing a single post of a few seconds of IC (which some forums and groups have demanded in the past). Most Threads and scenarios that do that barely last a few days or weeks and anal staff that demand it face a dead forum in 4-5 years. Material like that just amounts to the equivalant of burned out stumps and waisted database space.

As I said before though this doesn't include coherance or readability for the fellow players but then again thats for the players to decide what they accept not the medium (hence private vs public roleplay). If the venue makes itself unsuitable to poeple than said participants will avoid it.

[Dr_J]

Even then forced editing gets into subjective content conflicts (which is never good when it comes to personal expression) language barriers (non English and or cross dialects like Canadian VS american VS queens English and other colloquialisms) and grammar issues.

If that where to happen you would most likely lose 90% of the stories submitted here because looking that deeply into things that just are not ever going to meet that standards kills desire to even try.

Just don't go demanding professional or post secondary level writing standards or forced formatting requirements like minimum word counts and double spaced submissions among other things like I mentioned above.

I'm here to read as a form of lifestyle enjoyment not to be lectured from a bunch of overly arrogant and conservative English teachers who think their god. There are plenty of other places to get banned, get burned in a weekly crusade or have your work deleted if you have a few spelling errors or don't meet unreasonable standards.

Roleplay is the same way. All demanding impossibly high detail or minimum posting lengths do in this fandom is kill creativity. No one wants to sit for 2-3 hours writing a single post of a few seconds of IC (which some forums and groups have demanded in the past). Most Threads and scenarios that do that barely last a few days or weeks and anal staff that demand it face a dead forum in 4-5 years. Material like that just amounts to the equivalant of burned out stumps and waisted database space.

As I said before though this doesn't include coherance or readability for the fellow players but then again thats for the players to decide what they accept not the medium (hence private vs public roleplay). If the venue makes itself unsuitable to poeple than said participants will avoid it.

Well I'm definitely not an English teacher and I know I'm not God. I also don't consider myself arrogant. These are just ideas, mind you. Suggestions I've made to possibly help out on the other important aspect of this forum. The Gallery's being worked on, so I figured the Fiction section could also use some tweaking.

These are by no means demands. I'm not a moderator/admin. I'm just a writer. There are plenty of other forums where there's a general format that allows members to read stories easier.

Also, there was no mention of forced editing. That'd be ridiculous and nobody would do it. This would simply be members asking other members to take a look at a story before it's submitted. I've done it before and I'd still be willing to do it if my time allows.

And yes, RP threads are a completely different story. I have no suggestions regarding them, as I've seen how a majority of the threads are progressed.

[Samiel]

and who would be responsible for editing every story submission made? I can tell you asking for editing help on other forums is usually something you have to pay for unless forum administration dedicates themselves to allocating resources to edit what can account (on this forum) to 10-20 submissions a week.

First of all, editing things would be entirely voluntary. Anyone who honestly thinks they should be paid to edit a story that's going to be published on a free internet forum is only kidding themselves, or they think themselves the "arrogant English teachers who think they're God," as you mention later. Also, it would be just a matter of the author in question PMing somebody and going "hey, can you edit my story?" if they aren't sure it's good.

Even then forced editing gets into subjective content conflicts (which is never good when it comes to personal expression) language barriers (non English and or cross dialects like Canadian VS american VS queens English and other colloquialisms) and grammar issues.

Nobody has absolutely perfect grammar or command of any language. We're not talking about editing people on the basic of the language itself, but the coherence of it. It's not that much to ask for proper punctuation or capitalization.

If that where to happen you would most likely lose 90% of the stories submitted here because looking that deeply into things that just are not ever going to meet that standards kills desire to even try.

This is a matter of opinion. Artists and writers always are striving to improve themselves, as far as I know.

Though thats to say I don't feel a single incoherent, jumbled up paragraph that is one long "run on sentence" isn't an acceptable story submission nor would it be if its something that would be if it doesnt look or read like one. A story should look like a story if it is going to be submitted as such and it should be readable.


Just don't go demanding professional or post secondary level writing standards or forced formatting requirements like minimum word counts and double spaced submissions among other things like I mentioned above.
Nobody's demanding that anyone write a college-level thesis paper or a novel that will go down in history, dude. We're just asking that the story is actually readable.

I'm here to read as a form of lifestyle enjoyment not to be lectured from a bunch of overly arrogant and conservative English teachers who think their god. There are plenty of other places to get banned, get burned in a weekly crusade or have your work deleted if you have a few spelling errors or don't meet unreasonable standards.

We haven't even set the standards out in stone yet, so knock off the assumptions that we've already set "impossibly high standards."

Roleplay is the same way. All demanding impossibly high detail or minimum posting lengths do in this fandom is kill creativity. No one wants to sit for 2-3 hours writing a single post of a few seconds of IC (which some forums and groups have demanded in the past). Most Threads and scenarios that do that barely last a few days or weeks and anal staff that demand it face a dead forum in 4-5 years. Material like that just amounts to the equivalant of burned out stumps and waisted database space.


As I said before though this doesn't include coherance or readability for the fellow players but then again thats for the players to decide what they accept not the medium (hence private vs public roleplay). If the venue makes itself unsuitable to poeple than said participants will avoid it.[/QUOTE]

I'd like to point you to an RP thread that I'm doing which does have a minimum posting length. It's only four sentences, but I didn't put it out because I'm an arrogant dick, I just wanted to see who would take up the challenge. Someone did, and I'm very impressed with what I've seen so far. When you better your abilities as an artist, a writer or even an RPer, it's something to honestly be proud of.

[neo]

First of all, editing things would be entirely voluntary. Anyone who honestly thinks they should be paid to edit a story that's going to be published on a free internet forum is only kidding themselves, or they think themselves the "arrogant English teachers who think they're God," as you mention later. Also, it would be just a matter of the author in question PMing somebody and going "hey, can you edit my story?" if they aren't sure it's good.

The tone of that reply sounded more mandatory (as in he wanted people to be forced to have others edit because they didn't spell right) but yeah most writer forums in this genre tend to be exactly as this. I cant link forums but I actually saw a public post saying "if you want me to edit your work there is a charge" If its voluntary by all means go ahead Id have no problem assisting if someone wanted nor would I charge

(I consider myself advanced in my language skills though I'm not professionally qualified).



Nobody has absolutely perfect grammar or command of any language. We're not talking about editing people on the basic of the language itself, but the coherence of it. It's not that much to ask for proper punctuation or capitalization.

Nobody's demanding that anyone write a college-level thesis paper or a novel that will go down in history, dude. We're just asking that the story is actually readable.

Thats fine I'm not going to complain about someone deleting something thats all run on sentences. But some reviewers seem to want to go all out on people who are not following the most exact grammar and will delete a story or post that misses every comma, paragraph semi colon (this thing is anal) or has too many pronouns (for example. There is a difference between telling someone to quit the "run on sentences" and going all grammar nazti (no flame war intended here I'm not interested in starting a grammar e-war) .



We haven't even set the standards out in stone yet, so knock off the assumptions that we've already set "impossibly high standards."

Ill reserve judgement and see what comes out. I was never assuming anything just basing my responses on what looked like creative elitism rearing its ugly head again about to create impossible standards (and thus I raise a protest to anything that may be created).


Most times people who post in these kinds of standard suggestions usually are of this type and you never see anyone who are more moderated in their responses. Hopefully the standards you and the staff are coming out with will be balanced enough to meet without unhealthy amounts of effort.




I'd like to point you to an RP thread that I'm doing which does have a minimum posting length. It's only four sentences, but I didn't put it out because I'm an arrogant dick, I just wanted to see who would take up the challenge. Someone did, and I'm very impressed with what I've seen so far. When you better your abilities as an artist, a writer or even an RPer, it's something to honestly be proud of.

Its your thread if you want to request people write 300 word essay posts or a basic 2 or 3 lines/scentences its your choice. The system currently allows individuals to propose and control their own RP threads regardless of quality.

Forcing all the RP threads however to that or some other yet to be decided writing standard is what generates concern. Thats where people will just refuse to post if they find it too difficult.

(IMO 3-4 scentences is not hard but Ive lost alot of friends asking that they follow similar ideals to this in my RPs so who knows).

As for improvement well one cannot force another to improve. It has to be something a person wants to do an only the individual can choose how or what they do for it and to how they value their own individual skills. You can challenge someone to do better and thus improve but most times ridicule and punishment are used as ways to force standards and that is where I argue many times it makes people quit trying (its never good enough so why bother).

I don't draw (It actually makes me ill to draw but i wont go into it) but I can drive personal experience from writing. Its supposed to be fun but when I'm spending 10 hours of editing for every 1 of writing (and making it perfect to detract the natzis above) it is no longer fun to me. When I start thinking like a proper editor my will to write drops accordingly and I can only assume for some its the same way. Some do not care and post materials that make these kinds of threads an issue (I envy the ability to not care about being banned from everything and looking like your mentally challenged) but you can see where the exact opposite can lead. Editing this post for example took me almost half an hour.

[Samiel]

I'm glad we've come to a greater understanding. However, we're starting to get a touch off track with the RP forum. Nobody's going to be moderating or cleaning that up, unless the RP actually violates the rules Ai intially set out (Which none have as of yet). So let's get off that subject, now that both our points have been made.

As for the stories--I will not deny it. I'm a TREMENDOUS elitist in all things. However! I also realize that not everyone is going to be the same as me, and so I try my hardest to keep that elitism out of my moderating of this forum. Furthermore, I'm not a seasoned writer. And it's for that reason that I will be keeping my nose mostly out of that forum, or at least looking to a more experienced writer such as Vickie for guidance.

[Long_Rifle]

As a writer I've always tried to get better. With every story I've written I've gotten used to writing and improved. I know now, after ten years of writing I'm not the best. But I'm certainly far from the worst.

I can look back at my early works and cringe. I can't believe that I ever posted such badly formatted drivel. The stories aren't bad, but looking back at how they are written makes me ashamed. Over the years I've re-posted many of my early stories. Just to clean them up.

But even in my earliest days I NEVER wrote as badly as some of the things in that section. I'm sorry. I understand we are starving for content. That as members of such a small community we are all tempted to just say, "The heck with it, it's better then nothing."

But it's not. If I go to a site, and the first few stories I try to read make me want to puke out my eyes, I leave. And I don't come back. I'm new here. I looked around, and saw a great site, what appear to be good mods (so far), and plenty of content all nicely sectioned off. It's a great place so far. I like the attempts to keep the art section clean, and quite honestly I support the idea of looking at stories and removing, or at least moving them to a "new writer" section. Or something like that.

These people need to be coached, and accept it. They can read the comments left and grow as a writer, or get angry and leave. Either choice is good. A writer either gets better, and we have another "star of the AB/DL writing world", or we have a lazy person no longer sucking the air out of the room with his bad stories.

[neo]

Do you mean coaching or do you mean flaming, ridicule insults and possibly administrative action (like banning people who don't meet writing standards or preventing them from posting again).

I don't care if admin wants to delete crappy stories that meet basic standards (think newspapers that write at a grade 5 level) but like I said before people will cease to write on this site if you start demanding arcane standards like others here demand on their own locations.

This isn't a writers forum its a fetish forum the 2 extremes will never meet. You cant expect this forum to exist if your going to demand ultra high quality work. There are other places to be crucified because your not professional. you can offer the help but enforcing those kinds of standards will pretty much kill content more than it already is.

[Long_Rifle]

There is a big difference between asking for "publishable" work, and asking for something that had more then 20 minutes of thought put into it.

I myself do not flame. When I've given criticism it is usually straight and to the point, but never calling a person a noob, or telling them to never post again, unless they've shown repeated foolishness.

HOWEVER, that does not mean that we should allow sub standard work to continue to be posted here, over and over, by the same people, that seemingly refuse to learn from their mistakes.

Asking writers to use paragraphs, some punctuation, and quote marks when people are speaking is not asking for the moon. It's the same as asking artists to not post crudely drawn stick figures, or something drawn (badly) in MS paint.

When most people look at art they can tell when a guy slapped something together in 5 minutes or less. The same should be true for stories, just as you should have a standard when it comes to art, there can be one for stories.

We don't need strawmen here, this is not an issue about writing to professional standards, no one has ever stated it should be. This is simply about setting a "low bar", a point at which a person gets criticism, and a chance or two to improve. Maybe move his story to a "new writer" section.

Yes, many people don't suffer fools gladly, instead of trying to help, they will flame. That's part of using the internet. You have to accept the good, and the stupid. If you post drivel, you should be ready to accept the consequences. If you seriously can't take an anonymous person flaming you anonymously on the internet, you really shouldn't be on the internet.

And many other sites get along just fine with guidelines that remove stories with little to no effort put into them. And they seem to be getting plenty of new stories. Will setting the bar higher scare away a few authors that don't want to get better? Yep.

But will those that stick around and improve give us plenty of stories we can read easily, and want to read again and again over the next few years? Yep.

[TBinthehoodie]

i try 2 make my stories good but as much as my mind can be i can't make really long story chapters.

i worked real well on anything that isn't related 2 the site i'd luv to see a non-ab/dl (and anything related to it) section. so if there are better at writing stories that isn't really good at ab/dl stories can show their work.

i try to make good ab/dl stories i get hit and miss chapters but i got other stories that aren't anything related to the site that are better and those that have stories that aren't ab/dl or anything related that are stronger writers in the non ab/dl part then with ab/dl themes.

so i think a non abdl story section would be helpful in some ways to writers

[neo]

Asking writers to use paragraphs, some punctuation, and quote marks when people are speaking is not asking for the moon. It's the same as asking artists to not post crudely drawn stick figures, or something drawn (badly) in MS paint.

Just like that standard that requires you to have 3 years of formal training or experience before your allowed to safely post if not more? And to use a program that costs money or one thats a ram hogging monster that crashes on a dime (thinking Gimp here otherwise everything else is pretty much paint equivalant)

Yes, many people don't suffer fools gladly, instead of trying to help, they will flame. That's part of using the internet. You have to accept the good, and the stupid. If you post drivel, you should be ready to accept the consequences. If you seriously can't take an anonymous person flaming you anonymously on the internet, you really shouldn't be on the internet.

For users its fine but when forum staff and admin go out of their way to make new users feel to ashamed to post than your community has issues. Ive seen places where administration is complacent with doing this. When administration does this then you can cease to produce content (on either this or any other forum) thats the difference I am speaking of here. I could go tell a flammer where to go and ignore them until said flamer becomes a staff member and removes me from the community for poor or work of insufficent quality.

If I feel even after 10 or 15 hours of editing 6 pages isnt enough to prevent me from being removed than I wouldnt bother posting at all (as several forums appear to me). Thats the issue im speaking of and by some of the moderator postings on here thats what is going to happe if left unchecked, especially with past history.

If thats how this community wishes to run so be it but I think its likely to be more harmful than good at least here.

We don't need strawmen here, this is not an issue about writing to professional standards, no one has ever stated it should be. This is simply about setting a "low bar", a point at which a person gets criticism, and a chance or two to improve. Maybe move his story to a "new writer" section.

Thats exactly what Im speaking of nothing more than a flaimbait and legalized flaiming. Id much rather prefer the full removal (or denial of submission) for a single spelling or gramatical error like FF.net does and then subsequent removal (banning) if you post material thats not sufficient quality (like artspots, jaxpad or the others)

And many other sites get along just fine with guidelines that remove stories with little to no effort put into them. And they seem to be getting plenty of new stories. Will setting the bar higher scare away a few authors that don't want to get better? Yep.

Im not going to spend my entire life meeting a standard to be a member of a community. I ony write as a form of expression- not something that consumes my life when meeting standards makes it no longer enjoyable (and I have high standards for myself) I stop the activity.

Asking somone to do that to improve goes beyond the level of reasonability. Maybe a person shouldnt write or submit to a site with such high standards but thats for the person to decide not a bunch of admins and moderators on a fetish site. I dont draw for this reason for example as the standards required actually makes me ill. Writing not as much but it is getting there on the communities I belong to.

But will those that stick around and improve give us plenty of stories we can read easily, and want to read again and again over the next few years? Yep.

Depends on what you feel that is. Again though I cant say anything to this until the staff decide what the enforcement level will be. I know things like minimal word count, sentence sizes, paragraph lengths (of which there is no standard and its subjective) or FF.net's arcane editing standards are probably better left off this site. But the presence of paragraphs and sentences and plot (though this becomes subjective) should be more than reasonable.

[Winnie Cooper]

neo - I think I'm going to rename you Chicken Little.

[Dr_J]

neo - I think I'm going to rename you Chicken Little.

I can barely contain my laughter. :D

But in all seriousness, it seems these suggestions have stirred up quite a debate. I honestly don't see any point in arguing about it, especially since we haven't even heard what the admins have come up with yet.

neo, I can see you've made some valid points in your arguments. Yes, having certain minimum requirements are a bit too much, but there has to be exceptions, like people writing one paragraph with no plot/character development, etc., submitting it, and saying it's a story. Those are the types of suggestions I'm hoping to see made into guidelines.

I too write as a form of self-expression, but like when I verbally communicate with a person or group of people, I want it to be coherent and clear, and even detailed to add some engaging elements to a piece.

And again, there are always exceptions, which is why there can't be minimum word counts and sentence lengths. There are stories known as "short shorts", which are usually 300 words or less. Things like that need to be taken into consideration to make these suggestions work.

[Samiel]

Didn't get Vickie's joke right away, but now I got it. >.> *cough* ANYWAY! Again, Neo, you don't seem to be getting the most basic fact here.

NONE OF THIS HAS BEEN SET IN STONE.

I cannot stress this enough. If any action is taken, it will be the end result of a great deal of deliberation and discussion. So you just need to relax about that before starting to fling accusations. Nothing has been done, nobody's stories have been deleted yet. Not even the ones that many people would say are "terrible."

[nekoman]

listin dont remove writers section without writers consent dangit and vic it took me hours of serching to find storys btw wanna hear about a spinoff idea

[Dr_J]

There was absolutely no mention of removing the writer's section altogether! That's not even close to what I was suggesting! Please, you've got to read much more carefully next time.

I'm talking about CERTAIN "stories" that have been posted or are being posted. The pieces of writing that are one jumbled paragraph with no real plot, no character development, and no real feeling of effort.

I've noticed a severe problem with arrogance/ignorance when I've offered constructive criticism on some members' work (though some members are also thankful...you know who you are!). I really don't want to resort to this, but take a look at the "Kit and Kate" series on this site. Look at every single one.

Now, I haven't left comments on all of them, but on the ones I did, there are suggestions to help the author. Most of the time the author's response is either a cold shoulder or a "I don't care."

Stuff like that shouldn't be tolerated, especially when EVERY story from the author is written the exact same way with no attempt at improvement. See what I mean?

[neo]

There was absolutely no mention of removing the writer's section altogether! That's not even close to what I was suggesting! Please, you've got to read much more carefully next time.

You have to remember I never said that I was more concerned about turning it into an elitist submission site like artspots or jaxpad is for art (go look them up and see what I mean). For a site like this the few people that can meet that standard would make a subsection a waste of space (why make an entire section for 3-4 authors). Administration and staff I think know this and are going to hopefully moderate what the standards are going to be to accommodative.


I'm talking about CERTAIN "stories" that have been posted or are being posted. The pieces of writing that are one jumbled paragraph with no real plot, no character development, and no real feeling of effort.

Your free to input as much as I am. Hopefully though moderators find middle ground here. I don't like reading some of those spammy one paragraph run on sentences (the least they could do is separate it) either but not everyone is a novelist and wants to spend an unreasonable amount of time becoming the next AB star. Its also not fair to expect that ( look at what I believe is fair in this thread).

I've noticed a severe problem with arrogance/ignorance when I've offered constructive criticism on some members' work (though some members are also thankful...you know who you are!). I really don't want to resort to this, but take a look at the "Kit and Kate" series on this site. Look at every single one.

I have looked at what your speaking about and labelling the entire story forum as you are for 5 stories out of over 300 (there may be more but it depends on the filter you use). Most people I have to say write somewhat coherently though like most places in this type of work plot lacks. Most of the best material here lies in a few Fan Fiction series though because fan-fiction supplies alot of the mechanics for you most elite authors equate it to that "Kit and Kate" series (as I have experienced). So pretty much this filter is almost mooted and needs to be accomodated for in other ways. I suspect Kit and Kate is only a means of cosmetic changes as anything else goes into personal tastes but that is my opinion. If this or other stores doesn't meet what a openly stated story standard is than it is a rule and not an opinion.

When one user stands out that particularly bad than it is a user issue not a venue issue. I would call someone who continues to post bad quality material despite being said that its not acceptable a spammer or troll who needs to be dealt with appropriately.

Now, I haven't left comments on all of them, but on the ones I did, there are suggestions to help the author. Most of the time the author's response is either a cold shoulder or a "I don't care."

Stuff like that shouldn't be tolerated, especially when EVERY story from the author is written the exact same way with no attempt at improvement. See what I mean?

As I was happily schooled in the "school of online criticism" earlier in this thread constructive criticism is a VOLUNTARY opinion not a judgement. As an opinion it is a two way street and the submitter can do as they see fit with the opinion. You can make whatever opinions you want on anything but expect on the internet to give and receive a variety of responses. That may include ignoring and giving the cold shoulder on flamebait, telling someone your own opinion, or just telling them where to go. Forcing somone to adapt and apply your opinion beyond anyone elses or administration themselves is as bad as not accepting the fact your going to be flamed. As long as its respectful and within forum guidelines than the two users are both free to interact in whatever way we see fit.

As I argued before though if administration feels it is not appropriate to the site well thats the only people that a content producer should apply guidelines from (as it should be). If I agree or feel your suggestions are relevant I may put them into play but I will not be forced under the threat of a ban to change my expressions according to your taste. A person submits material knowing the guidelines of the venue and as such they are prepared for and aware of the consequences of their actions including community reprisals and the fine art of dealing with them.

[nekoman]

well i know some people cant write that well but its just there style they write with

[TBsparky]

Umm I know I've come through a half-way conversation but i hope to GOD to Writers Section wont be deleted T_T alot of people have their precious work here! alot of good stuff. While others have badly thoughtout and basically unplotted stories

(though some members are also thankful...you know who you are!)
Here I am! -raises hand- =3

[nekoman]

i know my stories are but i have writers block

[TBsparky]

My stories too i guess are ok. I have no excuse if they are to be removed XD but I hope they dont as for other peoples. I think looking over them would be cool and maybe a post on how to improve in the WRITERS section of the forum? =3

[nekoman]

i had some stories deleted please contact the writer before deleting