The Gallery is Cleaning Up...Can We Clean the Communal Writers Section?

[Samiel]

Originally Posted by neo

and who would be responsible for editing every story submission made? I can tell you asking for editing help on other forums is usually something you have to pay for unless forum administration dedicates themselves to allocating resources to edit what can account (on this forum) to 10-20 submissions a week.

First of all, editing things would be entirely voluntary. Anyone who honestly thinks they should be paid to edit a story that's going to be published on a free internet forum is only kidding themselves, or they think themselves the "arrogant English teachers who think they're God," as you mention later. Also, it would be just a matter of the author in question PMing somebody and going "hey, can you edit my story?" if they aren't sure it's good.

Originally Posted by neo

Even then forced editing gets into subjective content conflicts (which is never good when it comes to personal expression) language barriers (non English and or cross dialects like Canadian VS american VS queens English and other colloquialisms) and grammar issues.

Nobody has absolutely perfect grammar or command of any language. We're not talking about editing people on the basic of the language itself, but the coherence of it. It's not that much to ask for proper punctuation or capitalization.

Originally Posted by neo

If that where to happen you would most likely lose 90% of the stories submitted here because looking that deeply into things that just are not ever going to meet that standards kills desire to even try.

This is a matter of opinion. Artists and writers always are striving to improve themselves, as far as I know.

Originally Posted by neo

Though thats to say I don't feel a single incoherent, jumbled up paragraph that is one long "run on sentence" isn't an acceptable story submission nor would it be if its something that would be if it doesnt look or read like one. A story should look like a story if it is going to be submitted as such and it should be readable.

Originally Posted by neo

Just don't go demanding professional or post secondary level writing standards or forced formatting requirements like minimum word counts and double spaced submissions among other things like I mentioned above.

Nobody's demanding that anyone write a college-level thesis paper or a novel that will go down in history, dude. We're just asking that the story is actually readable.

Originally Posted by neo

I'm here to read as a form of lifestyle enjoyment not to be lectured from a bunch of overly arrogant and conservative English teachers who think their god. There are plenty of other places to get banned, get burned in a weekly crusade or have your work deleted if you have a few spelling errors or don't meet unreasonable standards.

We haven't even set the standards out in stone yet, so knock off the assumptions that we've already set "impossibly high standards."

Originally Posted by neo

Roleplay is the same way. All demanding impossibly high detail or minimum posting lengths do in this fandom is kill creativity. No one wants to sit for 2-3 hours writing a single post of a few seconds of IC (which some forums and groups have demanded in the past). Most Threads and scenarios that do that barely last a few days or weeks and anal staff that demand it face a dead forum in 4-5 years. Material like that just amounts to the equivalant of burned out stumps and waisted database space.

As I said before though this doesn't include coherance or readability for the fellow players but then again thats for the players to decide what they accept not the medium (hence private vs public roleplay). If the venue makes itself unsuitable to poeple than said participants will avoid it.[/quote]

I'd like to point you to an RP thread that I'm doing which does have a minimum posting length. It's only four sentences, but I didn't put it out because I'm an arrogant dick, I just wanted to see who would take up the challenge. Someone did, and I'm very impressed with what I've seen so far. When you better your abilities as an artist, a writer or even an RPer, it's something to honestly be proud of.

[neo]

Originally Posted by Samiel

First of all, editing things would be entirely voluntary. Anyone who honestly thinks they should be paid to edit a story that's going to be published on a free internet forum is only kidding themselves, or they think themselves the "arrogant English teachers who think they're God," as you mention later. Also, it would be just a matter of the author in question PMing somebody and going "hey, can you edit my story?" if they aren't sure it's good.

The tone of that reply sounded more mandatory (as in he wanted people to be forced to have others edit because they didn't spell right) but yeah most writer forums in this genre tend to be exactly as this. I cant link forums but I actually saw a public post saying "if you want me to edit your work there is a charge" If its voluntary by all means go ahead Id have no problem assisting if someone wanted nor would I charge

(I consider myself advanced in my language skills though I'm not professionally qualified).

Originally Posted by Samiel

Nobody has absolutely perfect grammar or command of any language. We're not talking about editing people on the basic of the language itself, but the coherence of it. It's not that much to ask for proper punctuation or capitalization.

Nobody's demanding that anyone write a college-level thesis paper or a novel that will go down in history, dude. We're just asking that the story is actually readable.

Thats fine I'm not going to complain about someone deleting something thats all run on sentences. But some reviewers seem to want to go all out on people who are not following the most exact grammar and will delete a story or post that misses every comma, paragraph semi colon (this thing is anal) or has too many pronouns (for example. There is a difference between telling someone to quit the "run on sentences" and going all grammar nazti (no flame war intended here I'm not interested in starting a grammar e-war) .

Originally Posted by Samiel

We haven't even set the standards out in stone yet, so knock off the assumptions that we've already set "impossibly high standards."

Ill reserve judgement and see what comes out. I was never assuming anything just basing my responses on what looked like creative elitism rearing its ugly head again about to create impossible standards (and thus I raise a protest to anything that may be created).


Most times people who post in these kinds of standard suggestions usually are of this type and you never see anyone who are more moderated in their responses. Hopefully the standards you and the staff are coming out with will be balanced enough to meet without unhealthy amounts of effort.

Originally Posted by Samiel

I'd like to point you to an RP thread that I'm doing which does have a minimum posting length. It's only four sentences, but I didn't put it out because I'm an arrogant dick, I just wanted to see who would take up the challenge. Someone did, and I'm very impressed with what I've seen so far. When you better your abilities as an artist, a writer or even an RPer, it's something to honestly be proud of.

Its your thread if you want to request people write 300 word essay posts or a basic 2 or 3 lines/scentences its your choice. The system currently allows individuals to propose and control their own RP threads regardless of quality.

Forcing all the RP threads however to that or some other yet to be decided writing standard is what generates concern. Thats where people will just refuse to post if they find it too difficult.

(IMO 3-4 scentences is not hard but Ive lost alot of friends asking that they follow similar ideals to this in my RPs so who knows).

As for improvement well one cannot force another to improve. It has to be something a person wants to do an only the individual can choose how or what they do for it and to how they value their own individual skills. You can challenge someone to do better and thus improve but most times ridicule and punishment are used as ways to force standards and that is where I argue many times it makes people quit trying (its never good enough so why bother).

I don't draw (It actually makes me ill to draw but i wont go into it) but I can drive personal experience from writing. Its supposed to be fun but when I'm spending 10 hours of editing for every 1 of writing (and making it perfect to detract the natzis above) it is no longer fun to me. When I start thinking like a proper editor my will to write drops accordingly and I can only assume for some its the same way. Some do not care and post materials that make these kinds of threads an issue (I envy the ability to not care about being banned from everything and looking like your mentally challenged) but you can see where the exact opposite can lead. Editing this post for example took me almost half an hour.

[Samiel]

I'm glad we've come to a greater understanding. However, we're starting to get a touch off track with the RP forum. Nobody's going to be moderating or cleaning that up, unless the RP actually violates the rules Ai intially set out (Which none have as of yet). So let's get off that subject, now that both our points have been made.

As for the stories--I will not deny it. I'm a TREMENDOUS elitist in all things. However! I also realize that not everyone is going to be the same as me, and so I try my hardest to keep that elitism out of my moderating of this forum. Furthermore, I'm not a seasoned writer. And it's for that reason that I will be keeping my nose mostly out of that forum, or at least looking to a more experienced writer such as Vickie for guidance.

[Long_Rifle]

As a writer I've always tried to get better. With every story I've written I've gotten used to writing and improved. I know now, after ten years of writing I'm not the best. But I'm certainly far from the worst.

I can look back at my early works and cringe. I can't believe that I ever posted such badly formatted drivel. The stories aren't bad, but looking back at how they are written makes me ashamed. Over the years I've re-posted many of my early stories. Just to clean them up.

But even in my earliest days I NEVER wrote as badly as some of the things in that section. I'm sorry. I understand we are starving for content. That as members of such a small community we are all tempted to just say, "The heck with it, it's better then nothing."

But it's not. If I go to a site, and the first few stories I try to read make me want to puke out my eyes, I leave. And I don't come back. I'm new here. I looked around, and saw a great site, what appear to be good mods (so far), and plenty of content all nicely sectioned off. It's a great place so far. I like the attempts to keep the art section clean, and quite honestly I support the idea of looking at stories and removing, or at least moving them to a "new writer" section. Or something like that.

These people need to be coached, and accept it. They can read the comments left and grow as a writer, or get angry and leave. Either choice is good. A writer either gets better, and we have another "star of the AB/DL writing world", or we have a lazy person no longer sucking the air out of the room with his bad stories.

[neo]

Do you mean coaching or do you mean flaming, ridicule insults and possibly administrative action (like banning people who don't meet writing standards or preventing them from posting again).

I don't care if admin wants to delete crappy stories that meet basic standards (think newspapers that write at a grade 5 level) but like I said before people will cease to write on this site if you start demanding arcane standards like others here demand on their own locations.

This isn't a writers forum its a fetish forum the 2 extremes will never meet. You cant expect this forum to exist if your going to demand ultra high quality work. There are other places to be crucified because your not professional. you can offer the help but enforcing those kinds of standards will pretty much kill content more than it already is.

[Long_Rifle]

There is a big difference between asking for "publishable" work, and asking for something that had more then 20 minutes of thought put into it.

I myself do not flame. When I've given criticism it is usually straight and to the point, but never calling a person a noob, or telling them to never post again, unless they've shown repeated foolishness.

HOWEVER, that does not mean that we should allow sub standard work to continue to be posted here, over and over, by the same people, that seemingly refuse to learn from their mistakes.

Asking writers to use paragraphs, some punctuation, and quote marks when people are speaking is not asking for the moon. It's the same as asking artists to not post crudely drawn stick figures, or something drawn (badly) in MS paint.

When most people look at art they can tell when a guy slapped something together in 5 minutes or less. The same should be true for stories, just as you should have a standard when it comes to art, there can be one for stories.

We don't need strawmen here, this is not an issue about writing to professional standards, no one has ever stated it should be. This is simply about setting a "low bar", a point at which a person gets criticism, and a chance or two to improve. Maybe move his story to a "new writer" section.

Yes, many people don't suffer fools gladly, instead of trying to help, they will flame. That's part of using the internet. You have to accept the good, and the stupid. If you post drivel, you should be ready to accept the consequences. If you seriously can't take an anonymous person flaming you anonymously on the internet, you really shouldn't be on the internet.

And many other sites get along just fine with guidelines that remove stories with little to no effort put into them. And they seem to be getting plenty of new stories. Will setting the bar higher scare away a few authors that don't want to get better? Yep.

But will those that stick around and improve give us plenty of stories we can read easily, and want to read again and again over the next few years? Yep.

[TBinthehoodie]

i try 2 make my stories good but as much as my mind can be i can't make really long story chapters.

i worked real well on anything that isn't related 2 the site i'd luv to see a non-ab/dl (and anything related to it) section. so if there are better at writing stories that isn't really good at ab/dl stories can show their work.

i try to make good ab/dl stories i get hit and miss chapters but i got other stories that aren't anything related to the site that are better and those that have stories that aren't ab/dl or anything related that are stronger writers in the non ab/dl part then with ab/dl themes.

so i think a non abdl story section would be helpful in some ways to writers

[neo]

Originally Posted by Long_Rifle

Asking writers to use paragraphs, some punctuation, and quote marks when people are speaking is not asking for the moon. It's the same as asking artists to not post crudely drawn stick figures, or something drawn (badly) in MS paint.

Just like that standard that requires you to have 3 years of formal training or experience before your allowed to safely post if not more? And to use a program that costs money or one thats a ram hogging monster that crashes on a dime (thinking Gimp here otherwise everything else is pretty much paint equivalant)

Originally Posted by Long_Rifle

Yes, many people don't suffer fools gladly, instead of trying to help, they will flame. That's part of using the internet. You have to accept the good, and the stupid. If you post drivel, you should be ready to accept the consequences. If you seriously can't take an anonymous person flaming you anonymously on the internet, you really shouldn't be on the internet.

For users its fine but when forum staff and admin go out of their way to make new users feel to ashamed to post than your community has issues. Ive seen places where administration is complacent with doing this. When administration does this then you can cease to produce content (on either this or any other forum) thats the difference I am speaking of here. I could go tell a flammer where to go and ignore them until said flamer becomes a staff member and removes me from the community for poor or work of insufficent quality.

If I feel even after 10 or 15 hours of editing 6 pages isnt enough to prevent me from being removed than I wouldnt bother posting at all (as several forums appear to me). Thats the issue im speaking of and by some of the moderator postings on here thats what is going to happe if left unchecked, especially with past history.

If thats how this community wishes to run so be it but I think its likely to be more harmful than good at least here.

Originally Posted by Long_Rifle

We don't need strawmen here, this is not an issue about writing to professional standards, no one has ever stated it should be. This is simply about setting a "low bar", a point at which a person gets criticism, and a chance or two to improve. Maybe move his story to a "new writer" section.

Thats exactly what Im speaking of nothing more than a flaimbait and legalized flaiming. Id much rather prefer the full removal (or denial of submission) for a single spelling or gramatical error like FF.net does and then subsequent removal (banning) if you post material thats not sufficient quality (like artspots, jaxpad or the others)

Originally Posted by Long_Rifle

And many other sites get along just fine with guidelines that remove stories with little to no effort put into them. And they seem to be getting plenty of new stories. Will setting the bar higher scare away a few authors that don't want to get better? Yep.

Im not going to spend my entire life meeting a standard to be a member of a community. I ony write as a form of expression- not something that consumes my life when meeting standards makes it no longer enjoyable (and I have high standards for myself) I stop the activity.

Asking somone to do that to improve goes beyond the level of reasonability. Maybe a person shouldnt write or submit to a site with such high standards but thats for the person to decide not a bunch of admins and moderators on a fetish site. I dont draw for this reason for example as the standards required actually makes me ill. Writing not as much but it is getting there on the communities I belong to.

Originally Posted by Long_Rifle

But will those that stick around and improve give us plenty of stories we can read easily, and want to read again and again over the next few years? Yep.

Depends on what you feel that is. Again though I cant say anything to this until the staff decide what the enforcement level will be. I know things like minimal word count, sentence sizes, paragraph lengths (of which there is no standard and its subjective) or FF.net's arcane editing standards are probably better left off this site. But the presence of paragraphs and sentences and plot (though this becomes subjective) should be more than reasonable.

[Winnie Cooper]

neo - I think I'm going to rename you Chicken Little.

Originally Posted by victoriahnichole

neo - I think I'm going to rename you Chicken Little.

I can barely contain my laughter.

But in all seriousness, it seems these suggestions have stirred up quite a debate. I honestly don't see any point in arguing about it, especially since we haven't even heard what the admins have come up with yet.

neo, I can see you've made some valid points in your arguments. Yes, having certain minimum requirements are a bit too much, but there has to be exceptions, like people writing one paragraph with no plot/character development, etc., submitting it, and saying it's a story. Those are the types of suggestions I'm hoping to see made into guidelines.

I too write as a form of self-expression, but like when I verbally communicate with a person or group of people, I want it to be coherent and clear, and even detailed to add some engaging elements to a piece.

And again, there are always exceptions, which is why there can't be minimum word counts and sentence lengths. There are stories known as "short shorts", which are usually 300 words or less. Things like that need to be taken into consideration to make these suggestions work.